Unaccredited schools- all degree mills??
#11
(03-07-2012, 05:21 PM)Virtual Bison Wrote: The school of which I am most familiar is Kennedy-Western. That was an extremely successful college which emphasised business and engineering programs.

"Successful" is a relative term that you have not defined, but being shut or kicked out by four state governments might not be on the criteria list.
Quote:And the accreditation mafia shot the works to bring it down.

What's the basis for this statement? The accreditors had nothing to do with it. California, Hawaii, Idaho, and Wyoming each sent it packing. The DETC turned it down (if you can't make the cut at DETC....), but that didn't shut down the school.

Kennedy-Western was established in 1982 under California's very lax Authorized category. It never got its programs Approved. When California eliminated its Authorized category, Kennedy-Western went license shopping to each of those other states, all the while continuing to operate from Southern California. It could have--theoretically--gotten state approval and continued to operate without bothering with DETC. But its academic performance was so bad as to not even be able to rise above that low bar.
Quote:I believe that there are many others which got thrown under a bus as well. There are a number of others which get a bad rap even though they are challenging to students. I believe that Breyer State University is one such school. Maybe American InterContinental University though I believe it is now accredited. Rocheville University seems to be a popular school at the moment but I cannot say whether or not its legitimate. The accreditation mafia likes to bash it but knowing how those assholes opperate they might be picking on it because its making money.

Unaccredited schools that run into trouble invariably do so with their state agencies, not with accrediting agencies. In fact, accredited schools are the ones who fear the accreditors. There are many examples of unaccredited schools operating for decades without a sniff from accrediting agencies. In fact, it was DETC's really low standards that changed the dynamic, giving operations like SCUPS, AJU, and CCU a chance at redemption, which they took. Kennedy-Western tried the same thing, but failed.
Quote:Schools whic are substandard and accredited are rather numerous. I attended PCCI and got a certificate in an area. This school is now called Ashworth College. It is accredited and yadda yadda yadda but the correspondence course I took was extremely easy. A lot of the for profit online schools have gotten bad reviews from various students. I believe that Charter Oak School which awards degrees through examination is not all that great. I am sure there are others on this board who can tell you more.

Anecdotes--unsupported by any evidence and riddled with undefined terms--are fine for conversation, but they prove very little. And even if we accept them at face value and give them weight, what of it? Here's the paradox: you're proving the opposite point. After all, if becoming accredited is no big deal and allows such poor examples of schools, what does that say about the schools that can't even make that low standard? If, as you say, Charter Oak (a state college) is "not all that great," what does it say about the schools in your post?

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#12
I take issue with several points here:
(03-07-2012, 09:19 PM)Really? Wrote: "Successful" is a relative term that you have not defined, but being shut or kicked out by four state governments might not be on the criteria list.

It has been documented in a number of places that Kennedy-Western, a for profit school did make a great deal of money. It graduated 30,000 students. I suppose "successful" is a subjective but in my humble opinion Kennedy had a pretty good run.

I suppose that is why Dr. John Bear recommended the school until he changed his mind and sold down the river all the students he sent there.

Quote:What's the basis for this statement? The accreditors had nothing to do with it. California, Hawaii, Idaho, and Wyoming each sent it packing. The DETC turned it down (if you can't make the cut at DETC....), but that didn't shut down the school.
If you want to be precise it was the University shareholders who closed it down. I would guess that they could have moved the school to another location. But maybe they decided that it would not be worth the expense.

I do think that the school was a victim of its own success. It became the big fish that the accreditation racket wanted to make an example of simply because they were attracting so many students and making so much money in the process. This is why a campaign of defamation was launched against the school. This did, in turn lead to the DETC pulling the plug.

Quote:Kennedy-Western was established in 1982 under California's very lax Authorized category. It never got its programs Approved. When California eliminated its Authorized category, Kennedy-Western went license shopping to each of those other states, all the while continuing to operate from Southern California. It could have--theoretically--gotten state approval and continued to operate without bothering with DETC. But its academic performance was so bad as to not even be able to rise above that low bar.
That last sentence is your own opinion. What I do know is that for a long time Kennedy Western did have many programs which were not offered elsewhere. For example, it was the first school to have an online Engineering program. They actually preceeded DeVry and Walden in that respect. Before Kennedy-Western, DeVry only offereed Engineering Technology programs. Later Walden launced a program and later DeVry followed suite.

Quote:Unaccredited schools that run into trouble invariably do so with their state agencies, not with accrediting agencies. In fact, accredited schools are the ones who fear the accreditors. There are many examples of unaccredited schools operating for decades without a sniff from accrediting agencies. In fact, it was DETC's really low standards that changed the dynamic, giving operations like SCUPS, AJU, and CCU a chance at redemption, which they took. Kennedy-Western tried the same thing, but failed.
It is specifically the state agencies which I am referring to here. All you need do is look at the posts on this board regarding Alan Contreras, whose heavy handed attempts to enforce academic conformity led to him being convicted of civil rights violations. Or also consider the case of George Gollin whose attempts to destroy the careers and reputations of people led to a lawsuit from a perfectly legitimate University which he had defamed. He had used the resourses of a public University to further his own self promotion at the expense of others.

Its a fact that many states are attempting to criminalize unaccredited degrees and those who hold them. I do know of one state, specifically Oregon which passed a law forbidding degree holders from using their creditials, which would actually be a violation of first ammendment rights to free speech. KWU students sued the state and got the state to change its law. Other states have attempted similar laws but these are proving to be comepletly unenforcable since, besides being unconsititutional, they overstep the rights of corporations to hire as they see fit.

Quote:Anecdotes--unsupported by any evidence and riddled with undefined terms--are fine for conversation, but they prove very little. And even if we accept them at face value and give them weight, what of it? Here's the paradox: you're proving the opposite point. After all, if becoming accredited is no big deal and allows such poor examples of schools, what does that say about the schools that can't even make that low standard? If, as you say, Charter Oak (a state college) is "not all that great," what does it say about the schools in your post?
Again... politics!


More than anything else I am speaking out for the students, who are the real victims here. This attempt to cast students of unaccredited schools as being lazy, unintellegent or even as miscreants is really doing them an injustice. There are several "schools" which are rightfully called Diploma Mills. These are not schools so much as they are businesses which sell degrees which require no work. I have seen such operations advertised. Of course its dishonest for both the owners and purchasers of such degrees. But this is not what I am talking about here.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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#13
A reasoned response that should stand no rebuttal. And a pleasure to read at that!
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#14
(03-08-2012, 10:01 PM)Really? Wrote: A reasoned response that should stand no rebuttal. And a pleasure to read at that!

Thank you. I always enjoy a good debate.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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#15
It's a shame that John Bear listed KWU as a legitimate school for years and worse that he actually put it in a book as one of the "100 Good Schools." And worst of all. He now laughs at those who read those opinions and relied on them. KWU was at best legal and adequate for a few years. In the long run it sold out for profit. BUT NOT everyone who used this school were fools or crooks. Some decent people made use of those degrees and were not simply buying degrees. The author of the guides should bear that in mind before he trashes and slashes them and the school.
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#16
(03-14-2012, 07:16 AM)jamesc1 Wrote: It's a shame that John Bear listed KWU as a legitimate school for years and worse that he actually put it in a book as one of the "100 Good Schools." And worst of all. He now laughs at those who read those opinions and relied on them. KWU was at best legal and adequate for a few years. In the long run it sold out for profit. BUT NOT everyone who used this school were fools or crooks. Some decent people made use of those degrees and were not simply buying degrees. The author of the guides should bear that in mind before he trashes and slashes them and the school.

I could not have said it better myself. KWU, and WNU was not perfect but it did fill the needs of the students who went there. I will not try to defend the people who ran the school since they pretty much sold out the students. But the students and the faculty were the ones who really made it work. I guess it was a victim of its own success.

The sad thing is that if this can happen to Kennedy, it can also happen to all the other for profit online schools. These days even accreditation does not gurantee protection. I read several articles about how a number of schools are in the crosshairs of the accreditation Nazis.

Here we see one of the biggest assholes in the Senate taking aim at for profits...

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2012-...od-college

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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#17
I imagine KWU got too big and was making too much money selling their easier degrees, and, they were easier, but isn't that exactly why people use Excelsior and others of the type. Most older people want degrees that can be obtained in a year or less and that don't cost too much. Bear found this out many years ago, hence his these state licensed schools are just fine. Now he does his these easier accredited schools are just fine. Don't you doubt for a minute he will dump people who have these UOP/Excelsior degrees if it benefits him more. I can hear him now. "I never said that UOP offered degrees of the same level as Harvard or MIT. Only a fool would believe that all accredited schools are accepted the same." Smile Smile Yep, that would be just like our Bear. Only too ready to leave a sinking ship in the FIRST life boat.

Kennedy Western just got a little too rich-a little too easy- a little too fast. It wasn't a degree mill, it just wasn't very good and made a good target for people who needed sone target practice.
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#18
(05-08-2012, 08:12 AM)jamesc1 Wrote: I imagine KWU got too big and was making too much money selling their easier degrees, and, they were easier, but isn't that exactly why people use Excelsior and others of the type. Most older people want degrees that can be obtained in a year or less and that don't cost too much. Bear found this out many years ago, hence his these state licensed schools are just fine. Now he does his these easier accredited schools are just fine. Don't you doubt for a minute he will dump people who have these UOP/Excelsior degrees if it benefits him more. I can hear him now. "I never said that UOP offered degrees of the same level as Harvard or MIT. Only a fool would believe that all accredited schools are accepted the same." Smile Smile Yep, that would be just like our Bear. Only too ready to leave a sinking ship in the FIRST life boat.

Kennedy Western just got a little too rich-a little too easy- a little too fast. It wasn't a degree mill, it just wasn't very good and made a good target for people who needed sone target practice.
Good assessment. KWU or WNU as it later became known as, was certainly not the best school but it was not the worst either. There are several accredited schools which are far worse. I think there is a general disdain within the academic community for any for profit school. I even saw schools like DeVry or Phoenix being shunned by the tradional elitists. Oddly enough, the DeVry grads I know are actually better equipt at dealing with real world problems then grads of brick-and-mortor schools. This particularly true in the IT field.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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#19
I see no reason for people to reject Excelsior/UOP/others of the type as a group. Simply consider each person one at a time and reject or accept as the person deserves. When you lump everyone together you get soup. That's fine if you like soup but not so good if you wanted the individual taste offered by each.

Some people with Kennedy Western degrees are at college level in skill and ability. Others are fools. The same as could be said for grads of accredited schools. It's not just the school you use it's what you brought to the table in the first place. One of the smartest persons I ever met had a high school degree. He knew the Civil War from first to last.

I just don't see worrying why a fool is a fool or why a smart person is smart. People should be treated for what they do and know not what school they snooze through.
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#20
Degree granting authority is a three pronged monster in this nation...federal, state, and Indian nation...these are the "entities" that allow schools to grant degrees. This is beyond the first amendment...it is a 10th amendment "reserved powers clause"... granted by the constitution of these United States. When a state declares that a school has granted a degree recognized in "said" state...it cannot be seen as anything less than legal and valid in every state in the land. Despite states passing unconstitutional laws to the contrary. " Jim Crow" laws were legalized racism, that were abolished for being unconstitutional!...when states pass laws, that claim that the user of a California State Approved Degree is "illegal",,,that state is now in violation of the constitution...violating both the first and tenth amendment! Don't be fooled... Bear, Gollin and Contrerass all "KNOW" this!...So do many of the state personnel who have passed these laws...I have called a number of these states personally, including Texas...to discuss this very matter...LOL!, you should see how they double-talk and blubber to me on the phone, it's beyond funny. One guy was terrified I was a lawyer and practically pleaded to get off the phone with me...guess the guts they profess to have, evaporate pretty quickly in light of the crushing losses these states have sustained in recent years attempting to uphold these absurd laws. Even Florida saw the light and repealed it's unaccredited degree law, for being UNCONSTITUTIONAL!
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