What John Bear really said!!
#11
Quote:Again, no one ever got in trouble for having a degree from an accredited school. The opposite simply is not true, as we've seen over the last few decades.

Come on...if you bought a milled degree, kept it for yourself and/or just tried to impress the gal at the gas station, nobody would care whichever way...but if you started to parade it around and/or used it as a professional tool, then someone might start to pay attention to it...all sorts of attention...
A.A Mole University
B.A London Institute of Applied Research
B.Sc Millard Fillmore
M.A International Institute for Advanced Studies
Ph.D London Institute of Applied Research
Ph.D Millard Fillmore
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#12
(03-08-2012, 03:03 AM)ham Wrote:
Quote:Again, no one ever got in trouble for having a degree from an accredited school. The opposite simply is not true, as we've seen over the last few decades.

Come on...if you bought a milled degree, kept it for yourself and/or just tried to impress the gal at the gas station, nobody would care whichever way...but if you started to parade it around and/or used it as a professional tool, then someone might start to pay attention to it...all sorts of attention...

That's a non sequitur. As I said above, no one ever got in trouble doing those things with an accredited degree, but it happens often with those touting degrees from unaccredited schools.

I agree with your point, of course, which is why L.I.A.R. and Millard Fillmore were no big deal during their very brief existences a very, very long time ago. Again, glad we agree!
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#13
(03-08-2012, 03:20 AM)Really? Wrote:
(03-08-2012, 03:03 AM)ham Wrote:
Quote:Again, no one ever got in trouble for having a degree from an accredited school. The opposite simply is not true, as we've seen over the last few decades.

Come on...if you bought a milled degree, kept it for yourself and/or just tried to impress the gal at the gas station, nobody would care whichever way...but if you started to parade it around and/or used it as a professional tool, then someone might start to pay attention to it...all sorts of attention...

That's a non sequitur. As I said above, no one ever got in trouble doing those things with an accredited degree, but it happens often with those touting degrees from unaccredited schools.

I agree with your point, of course, which is why L.I.A.R. and Millard Fillmore were no big deal during their very brief existences a very, very long time ago. Again, glad we agree!

it is a non what? Come on...I had a hot dog with onion and ketchup for dinner, and you?
I said that getting into trouble crosses both the accredited and non-accredited domain, and depends entirely upon personal and political circumstances.
Nobody got in trouble "solely for possessing a milled degree"...they got in trouble for using it or parading it in a certain way.
The same applies to accredited degrees: Churchill, Hayward, Finkelstein, Faurisson etc.
It is possible to pick apart nearly everything.
An accredited degree is no safety belt if you cross the party line...and a milled degree isn't necessarily a problem if you toe it.
A.A Mole University
B.A London Institute of Applied Research
B.Sc Millard Fillmore
M.A International Institute for Advanced Studies
Ph.D London Institute of Applied Research
Ph.D Millard Fillmore
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#14
(03-08-2012, 05:52 PM)ham Wrote: it is a non what? Come on...I had a hot dog with onion and ketchup for dinner, and you?
I said that getting into trouble crosses both the accredited and non-accredited domain, and depends entirely upon personal and political circumstances.
Nobody got in trouble "solely for possessing a milled degree"...they got in trouble for using it or parading it in a certain way.
The same applies to accredited degrees: Churchill, Hayward, Finkelstein, Faurisson etc.
It is possible to pick apart nearly everything.
An accredited degree is no safety belt if you cross the party line...and a milled degree isn't necessarily a problem if you toe it.

These names, what are their relevance?

I've been hanging around this subject for a very long time. I can't recall a single instance where the use of an accredited degree got someone into trouble. That was the original premise, and it just doesn't hold up. No one said it was an immunity for unrelated trouble. That would be absurd.
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#15
Quote:where the use of an accredited degree got someone into trouble.

and you ignore my point...
the sole fact of getting a milled degree is no automatic cause of trouble...in fact, for any one blasted there are 10.000 you never heard about...
much as the sole fact of getting an accredited degree is no automatic cause of immunity on that front.
Hayward, Finkelstein, Faurisson...all had their (accredited) academic credentials blasted AFTER they overstepped political boundaries.
A dodgy degree is like visits to a gay brothel...(YUMM!!Big GrinTongue)...nobody cares really...people do whatever they see fit with their sexuality, right? Or it may come down to haunt you if the next guy who knows about it can get something out of it...the guy you ticked opening a competing business, perhaps? Some online crusader?
That's how friends of Bear's see MILLARD FILLMORE, LIAR, IIAS etc as larks that are possibly in bad taste, but more amusing than anything else...and enemies see degree mills.
Is what I say stupid?
No...it was what Bear & others touted back then...a milled degree can serve SOME purpose WHEN HANDLED WITH CARE.
A fake paratrooper ID may help you bed that skunk in the singles bar...but I strongly advise AGAINST trying crossing over to military premises, OR requesting veteran's benefits.
A.A Mole University
B.A London Institute of Applied Research
B.Sc Millard Fillmore
M.A International Institute for Advanced Studies
Ph.D London Institute of Applied Research
Ph.D Millard Fillmore
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#16
If I ignored your point, it was because it didn't address the issue.

Yes, some people in academia have found trouble from the things they've said or printed.

Millard Fillmore and L.I.A.R. were both tongue-in-cheek fundraisers. Both were very brief. Both happened a very long time ago. No one was fooled, no one was trying to fool anyone, and the only way you or anyone else even knows about them is that the guy behind them told their stories--knowing then as we (and you) know now that they weren't anything to be concerned about.

IIAS has a different story, also well-chronicled.

Yes, Bear and others recommended some unaccredited schools back then. That was the situation, and those were often the only realistic alternatives. But the situation has changed dramatically since then. Many of the more-recommended unaccredited schools went on to become accredited. Some went out of business. And some remain. Others have popped up. But the warnings about unaccredited degrees and their limited utility still remain.

Oh, and there's no such thing as a "paratrooper ID," fake or otherwise. And the notion that using a fake degree in some situations won't get you arrested, fine. But it's still lying.
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#17
(03-09-2012, 07:09 AM)Really? Wrote: If I ignored your point, it was because it didn't address the issue.
Yes, some people in academia have found trouble from the things they've said or printed. Millard Fillmore and L.I.A.R. were both tongue-in-cheek fundraisers. Both were very brief. Both happened a very long time ago. No one was fooled, no one was trying to fool anyone, and the only way you or anyone else even knows about them is that the guy behind them told their stories--knowing then as we (and you) know now that they weren't anything to be concerned about. IIAS has a different story, also well-chronicled. Yes, Bear and others recommended some unaccredited schools back then. That was the situation, and those were often the only realistic alternatives. But the situation has changed dramatically since then. Many of the more-recommended unaccredited schools went on to become accredited. Some went out of business. And some remain. Others have popped up. But the warnings about unaccredited degrees and their limited utility still remain.
Oh, and there's no such thing as a "paratrooper ID," fake or otherwise. And the notion that using a fake degree in some situations won't get you arrested, fine. But it's still lying.

I think we have lost track of what we are discussing? We were really discussing 'unaccredited' schools promoted by JB - none of which could be considered as 'mills'.
The term 'unaccredited' is really a term only used in the USA and there are over 3,000 private universities in the world: universities that operate very successfully without government oversight or interference.

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#18
(03-09-2012, 07:09 AM)Really? Wrote: Oh, and there's no such thing as a "paratrooper ID," fake or otherwise.

I didn't know my military ID card didn't exist. It looked real to me. Go figure.
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#19
(03-09-2012, 07:53 AM)DR ANATIDAE Wrote: I think we have lost track of what we are discussing? We were really discussing 'unaccredited' schools promoted by JB - none of which could be considered as 'mills'.
The term 'unaccredited' is really a term only used in the USA and there are over 3,000 private universities in the world: universities that operate very successfully without government oversight or interference.


While accreditation is largely--but not exclusively--a U.S. thing, almost every government on earth manages its higher education system. And if one takes a degree from a school not properly recognized, it is the same as taking one from an unaccredited school in the U.S.

In some countries, the notion of a private university is not accounted for. Thus, some despicable degree-sellers have set up operations, knowing the host government will just ignore them. They then claim to offer "legal" degrees. But being left alone to operate your diploma mill isn't the same as being recognized as a university, no matter who wishes it to be different. This can fool some purchasers. But most know better--joining the mill in a mutually beneficial fraud. Most casual observers will not see these distinctions. But we do, right?
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#20
(03-09-2012, 07:09 AM)Really? Wrote: Oh, and there's no such thing as a "paratrooper ID," fake or otherwise. And the notion that using a fake degree in some situations won't get you arrested, fine. But it's still lying.
I guess it depends on what you define as "fake." The way the accreditation mafia operates, the lines blur.

Its like this, these guys cry wolf everytime an unaccredited school comes along. Pretty soon they loose their credibility.

(03-09-2012, 11:54 AM)Really? Wrote: In some countries, the notion of a private university is not accounted for. Thus, some despicable degree-sellers have set up operations, knowing the host government will just ignore them. They then claim to offer "legal" degrees. But being left alone to operate your diploma mill isn't the same as being recognized as a university, no matter who wishes it to be different. This can fool some purchasers. But most know better--joining the mill in a mutually beneficial fraud. Most casual observers will not see these distinctions. But we do, right?

The subject of unaccredited colleges, including outright diploma mills is an interest of mine. I do know that some nations have rather liberal educational laws. Switzerland allows each canton autonomy in legislating institutions in higher learning and a number of questionable institutions. So has Singapore and Cayman Islands. Even in France there is one unaccredited school which actually has the endorsement of Nicolas Sarkozy.

In general, many schools will base their operations in one country but not market there and as long as they keep it that way the local authorities don't care that much. Kind of like the expression, don't shit where you eat I guess.

My own personal opinion, being a dye in the wool libertarian is that it should be the employer's responsibility to determine which applicant is qualified for a position. And for any government institution to say that a person cannot use their credentials on a resume or application is overstepping their boundries. I had seen all kinds of outrageous things on people's resumes, raging from fake employers, membership in non-existant professional organizations and certifications (fake certifications are actually a bigger problem than so called diploma mills in my opinion) and so on.

If an employer is too lazy to check an application then they get what they deserve.

Of course the real test is whether a person has the skills to do a job. I do not care how many degrees you have, if you cannot do a job right you will soon be on the street.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free."

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
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