Breyer State

[ham]

Reminds me of Bill Huffman's classic statement - "People who think degrees from degree mills are of some use are the same people that think penis enlargement pills actually work". I've oftened wondered how he knew that!

are you talking to me?
well, i never said milled degrees can't have any use.
if I had some proven ability and thought I was missing an occasion due to no paper qualification, I might buy a milled degree, since most people are clueless anyways.
however this is a PLAR sort of scenario, postulating one shall have ability and knowledge already.
I would make a poor neurosurgeon even with a diploma to state otherwise.
If i were to buy a milled degree, I'd buy some $39,99 thing on ebay rather than waste time with degree mills that pretend to be something else. Like a novelty photographer I.D might (or might not) land me in bed with top models., my milled degree might (or might not ) land me in an executive position at IBM.
If we are talking about "education" $300 worth of second-hand books will get anyone a great education...but he'll have no proof or parchement.
Then one can get an accredited parchement that might stand scrutiny, but the accredited route costs; he might get a unaccreditd parchement that will stand little to no scrutiny for $39,99; or he might spend nearly as much (or even more) than he would with the accredited route with some non-accredited schools that put up a show to look like accredited and rigorous, basically to justify their insanely high fees for basically printing you a degree...so there are people buying penis pills, but as well people selling them.

Unlike other people, I have no interest whatsoever in how dodgy or non-accredited "schools" look like or are perceived by the general public.
People do what they want, but i suggest going for the cheap option when basically purchasing a diploma...a novelty cartier watch replica bought for $39,99 will go the same lenght as a replica (=chinese fake) bought for $399 by some dodgy vendor who claims his replicas are the original replicas.

[Randall Flagg]

I'm sure he was only talking about Huffy, I was myself.

[Randall Flagg]

Bear presented all the options to people, mills, unaccredited schools, accredited schools. And for most of his recorded history (some might say histrionics), made it very plain that it was up to the buyer what was satisfactory and acceptable. Of course it's pretty hard to tell when he was serious and when he was just selling his products. Money will do that to a man.

[Student]

I think views change with time, what seemed as logical and posible in the 80's may not be the same in the 90's.
Laws change what is legals in the 70's and 80's may not be in the 90's.
Things should be compared in the content of that time.
When I was growing up a divorced woman with a child had serious negative consequences, she was looked down and had problem in finding another husband.
Today many women divorced have children from multiple husbands or partners and the society is not looking harsh on them, they can get married 5 times if they wish.
It was OK in the 70's or 80s to have nontraditional degree if you had your fist degree from traditional provider. Some proudly presented
their NY State BA or BS and their MA and MS from for example PWU in LA I think then.
My friend Alex had this combo and was proud of it, Erickson where he worked at the time payed for his masters etc. And recommending PWU
was not a crime or near crime then when DL options were few.

[ham]

It was OK in the 70's or 80s to have nontraditional degree if you had your fist degree from traditional provider. Some proudly presented
their NY State BA or BS and their MA and MS from for example PWU in LA I think then.

the real quack or fraud is not a man who has three degrees in philosophy from accredited, mainstream institutions and because of some personality or vanity flaw, say "accepts" (=buys) a "honorary professorship" from a dodgy school.
The real fraud is a man who buys a law degree but whose only experience with law is watching reruns of Colombo or Perry Mason.

[Randall Flagg]

It is still possible to proudly present an unaccredited degree to an employer. Honestly earned and paid for, it often works and is certainly nothing to be ashamed of. As Rich Douglas proved in his dissertation, page 136, HRM's see it as positive 96% of the time. Only 1.5% of employers said they would not accept them. When Bear and Douglas publicly say that unaccredited degrees almost never work, they are, not telling what they know to be the truth, and I expect they are saying it based on their own requirements, not the truth.

[Randall Flagg]

By the way the DL options were just fine in the early 70's. Again this is Bear crap about not being any accredited choices. He wanted to be involved with the unaccredited schools back then so he pretended there were no accredited choices. Especially he likes to tell that now.
Thomas Edison State College  Year Established 1972
Charter Oak State College 1973
Union Institute 1964
Excelsior / University of the State of New York 1972
and many more:

In fact Douglas got his degrees from Excelsior from 1979-81. While Bear was still hawking CPU, and, being part owner of CPU. The accredited choices were there right during the time Bear was doing CPU / IIAS / Greenwich.

In fact Bear still owned CPU stock in 1983, after, Douglas had graduated with three degrees from Excelsior in 1981.

"I graduated in 1979-1980 and 1981, respectively."
--Rich Douglas

The choices were there all during the Bear involvement with unaccredited schools, but, he wasn't interested in accredited schools at that time. His opportunities were at the unaccredited schools back then, THAT, was the difference, not the lack of choices. His opportunities (money variety) are now with the accredited schools.

While Bear was recommending unaccredited schools, especially the ones he owned, there were accredited schools available. In fact he was still recommending them up till about 1997. Strangely enough when he got involved with Heriot-Watt and was marketing it he began to see greater value in schools of that type. Like the used car salesman, he pushed what he represented. It was not about availability. It was not about what is best. It was not about what you need. It was about what he was selling.

Had Bear wished to do so he could have been pushing Excelsior, Charter Oak, TESC, Union.....etc., all during the 70's and 80's. All during those times when he was making other recommendations.

[Student]

I see your point but in my view there was hand full of schools you just mentioned in comparison to 2007 when every school offers classes and many schools in hundreds or maybe 1000's offer degree programs via DL.
In 70 as I stated you had few and I think I learned about the accredited USNY, Edison, Charter Oak, CIE, UK OU etc from Bears Guide.
Its not like he was hiding the legitimate schools, he did a good job in explaining the value of accreditation and at that time the value of unaccredited degrees. He also helped me and others to avoid embarrassment and get easy degree for life experience, I must admit I almost mailed a 2000 USD check to some mom an pops outfit.
I do remember that he made many degree mill operators really upset for exposing their fraudulent operations.
Yes I also remember that for some time he promoted the GU in Hawaii but he openly stated his involvement with them and the fact that at the time Hawaii didn't have laws regulating schools and the fact the the faculty of GU were all with earned accredited degrees unlike like many frauds schools with people who had their degrees from the same outfit.
Is Dr Bear an Angel no he is a business man in my view but what I read here is you make him in to devil and I think in my view its not the case.
I don't wish to turn this in to Bear bashing tread but I can understand why some are mad at him.
As far as RD I'm not that familiar with this mans work or degrees, only from what I read on the internet and I also think that some here over zealot and try to destroy his reputation and heart him.
Then quoting his disertation and using it against him.
From what I read he adjusted his views based on changes in DL market and legality of such degrees.
Yes his degrees are from non traditional universities.
And the only difference I may have with him and I don't know him at all but from what I read is to stress that not all accredited degrees are equal and I think he knows that.
Whats wrong with advising a person to earn an accredited degree?
Is it a crime?
He can't force a person to do so.
I do understand that this is bad for the business of unaccredited schools on all levels.

[ham]

Is Dr Bear an Angel no he is a business man in my view but what I read here is you make him in to devil and I think in my view its not the case.
I don't wish to turn this in to Bear bashing tread but I can understand why some are mad at him.

I can only talk about myself, and if you consider an article in Time Magazine or other reviews exposing John Bear as a operator of dodgy unaccredited schools (in jest, of course, to finance charities, so he says ) a conspiracy, good for you.

I would also be glad to hear how you explain his extreme shift in opinion about individual schools, EG Fairfax
http://www.dltruth.com/showthread.php?tid=32

Yes I also remember that for some time he promoted the GU in Hawaii but he openly stated his involvement with them and the fact that at the time Hawaii didn't have laws regulating schools and the fact the the faculty of GU were all with earned accredited degrees unlike like many frauds schools with people who had their degrees from the same outfit.

Any degree mill has a dense disclaimers page.

He also helped me and others to avoid embarrassment and get easy degree for life experience, I must admit I almost mailed a 2000 USD check to some mom an pops outfit.

well, I love to think you have/had the required expertise. If i was stranded on a pacific island for 6 years and had learnt ninjutsu from a lone japanese soldier (who was unaware the war had ended ), then buying a degree in ninjutsu would be just fair, for i might lack paper qualifications, but have expertise.
As well I love to think they thoroughly verified your statements; you know, I "met" a prankster (or a phoney ) over the internet recently, who posted a pic of a wall with say thirty gold discs & music awards, and claimed to have earnt them all.
Now I am "by invitation only" on the forum of a singer/writer who was very popular in the early 80s: a few of his songs sold millions of copies worldwide etc (and he is real, by the way ); well, no way he has all those music awards, or half of them and trust me, the man got balls in his field.
Think about being a unaware layman who chooses a lawyer thinking he is a lawyer, but bought his degree COD for $399 and his only forensic practice is watching tripe as CSI & Perry Mason.

[Student]

Ham you are asking:
I would also be glad to hear how you explain his extreme shift in opinion about individual schools, EG Fairfax

I quote John Bear:

Answering a question about PWU
http://en.allexperts.com/e/p/pa/pacific_...ersity.htm

I don't have a 1986 edition to look at. There was a time when I believed PWU was doing an OK job for an unaccredited school, but I always made clear that this was in the context of unaccredited schools, never as good a choice as properly accredited. So at best, these words are taken out of context.

It was a few years after that that the American Journal television program did a 'sting' operation in which one of their undercover reporters was able to purchase a Master's degree in less than ten days, no questions asked. American Journal also attempted to visit the 'campus' in Hawaii, and found it to be an empty room adjoining their lawyer's offices. Any possible positiveness I may have felt for PWU was gone by this time.

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Some one provided the following update about PWU:

Pacific Western University, the school mentioned in the allexperts.com site does not exist as such. It does say PWU is under new ownership and has been since 2005. Last year or so the new owners changed its name to California Miramar University and is seeking DETC accreditation. PWU- Hawaii was seperated and sold in 2004. Its new name was American Pacwest International University and was closed down by the Hawaiian government. It too no longer exist. California Miramar University website is listed below.

http://www.calmu.edu